Authors/Thomas Aquinas/physics/L4/lect3

Lecture 3 Is place matter or form?

Latin	English
	Lecture 3 Is place matter or form?
lib. 4 l. 3 n. 1 Postquam philosophus inquisivit disputative an locus sit, hic inquirit quid sit. Et primo ponit rationes disputativas ad ostendendum locum esse formam vel materiam; secundo ponit rationes in contrarium, ibi: at vero quod impossibile sit et cetera. Circa primum tria facit: primo ponit rationem ad ostendendum locum esse formam; secundo ad ostendendum locum esse materiam, ibi: secundum autem quod videtur esse locus etc.; tertio inducit corollarium ex his, ibi: merito autem ex his et cetera.	422. Having inquired dialectically into the question of place’s existence, the Philosopher now attacks the question: what is place? First he gives dialectical reasons showing that place is form or matter; Secondly, he gives reasons to the contrary, at no. 429. As to the first he does three things: First he gives a reason showing that place is form; Secondly, that place is matter, at no. 425. Thirdly, from these he draws a corollary, at no. 428.
lib. 4 l. 3 n. 2 Dicit ergo primo: quod sicut in entibus quoddam est per se ens, et aliquod dicitur ens per accidens; similiter considerandum est circa locum, quod quidam locus est communis, in quo omnia corpora sunt, et alius est locus proprius, qui primo et per se dicitur locus. Locus autem communis non dicitur locus nisi per accidens et per posterius. Quod sic manifestat. Possum enim dicere quod tu es in caelo, quia es in aere, qui est in caelo; et quod tu es in aere et in caelo, quia es in terra; et in terra diceris esse, quia es in loco, qui nihil continet plus quam te.	423. He says therefore first 52917 that just as in beings some are per se beings and others per accidens, so in regard to place, one place is common, in which all bodies exist, and another is proper and is called “place”, primarily and per se. Now common place is so called only per accidens and in relation to a previous place. He explains this thus: “I can say that you are in the heavens, because you are in the air which is in the heavens, and that you are in the air and in the heavens, because you are on earth and you are said to be on earth, because you are in a place containing nothing but you.”
lib. 4 l. 3 n. 3 Sic ergo illud quod primo et per se continet unumquodque, est per se locus eius; huiusmodi autem est terminus ad quem res terminatur; sequitur ergo quod locus proprie et per se sit terminus rei. Forma autem est terminus uniuscuiusque: quia per formam terminatur materia uniuscuiusque ad proprium esse, et magnitudo ad determinatam mensuram: quantitates enim rerum consequuntur formas earum. Videtur igitur secundum hanc considerationem, quod locus sit forma. Sed sciendum est quod in hac ratione est sophisma consequentis: syllogizatur enim in secunda figura ex duabus affirmativis.	424. Consequently, what contains a thing primarily and per se is its per se place. Now such a place is the boundary at which a thing is terminated. Therefore, place is properly and per se a boundary of a thing. But the boundary of each thing is its form, because it is through the form that the matter of anything is limited to its own existence and magnitude to a determinate measure. For the quantities of things follow upon their forms. According to this, therefore, it seems that place is the form. However, it should be noted that in this argument there is the fallacy of consequent; for it is a syllogism in the second figure with two affirmative premises.
lib. 4 l. 3 n. 4 Deinde cum dicit: secundum autem quod videtur esse locus etc., ponit rationem Platonis, per quam sibi videbatur quod locus esset materia. Ad cuius evidentiam sciendum est quod antiqui putaverunt locum esse spatium quod est inter terminos rei continentis, quod quidem habet dimensiones longitudinis, latitudinis et profunditatis. Non tamen huiusmodi spatium videbatur esse idem cum aliquo corporum sensibilium: quia recedentibus et advenientibus diversis corporibus sensibilibus, remanet idem spatium. Secundum hoc ergo sequitur quod locus sit dimensiones separatae.	425. Then [292 209 b6] he gives a reason of Plato through which it seemed to him that place is matter. To see this, one must note that the ancients thought that place was the space enveloped by the boundaries of the container, which has the dimensions of length, breadth, and depth. But this space did not seem to be the same as any sensible body, because the space remained the same even when various bodies successively entered it and left. Thus it follows that place is a set of separate dimensions.
lib. 4 l. 3 n. 5 Et ex hoc volebat syllogizare Plato quod locus esset materia. Et hoc est quod dicit, quod secundum quod locus videtur aliquibus esse distantia magnitudinis spatii, separata a quolibet corpore sensibili, videbatur quod locus esset materia. Ipsa namque distantia vel dimensio magnitudinis, altera est a magnitudine. Nam magnitudo significat aliquid terminatum aliqua specie, sicut linea terminatur punctis, et superficies linea, et corpus superficie, quae sunt species magnitudinis: sed dimensio spatii est contenta sub forma et determinata, sicut corpus determinatur plano, idest superficie, ut quodam termino. Id autem quod continetur sub terminis, videtur esse in se non determinatum. Quod autem est in se non determinatum, sed determinatur per formam et terminum, est materia, quae habet rationem infiniti: quia si ab aliquo corpore sphaerico removeantur passiones sensibiles et termini quibus figuratur dimensio magnitudinis, nihil relinquitur nisi materia. Unde relinquitur quod ipsae dimensiones ex se indeterminatae, quae per aliud determinantur, sint ipsa materia. Et hoc praecipue sequebatur secundum radices Platonis, qui ponebat numeros et quantitates esse substantias rerum.	426. From this Plato wished to demonstrate that place is matter. This is what he [Aristotle] says: Because some consider that place is the distance of the magnitude of space distinct from every sensible body, place would seem to be matter. For the distance or dimension of a magnitude is distinct from the magnitude. For magnitude signifies something terminated by some species [or form], as a line is terminated by points, and a surface by line, and a body by surface, and these are species of magnitude. But the dimension of space is contained under a determined form as a body is determined by a plane, i.e., by a surface, as, by a definite boundary. Now whatever is contained under boundaries seems to be in itself not determined. What is not determined in itself but by a form and boundary is matter which has the nature of the infinite. For were we to remove from some spherical body its sensible qualities and the boundaries by which the dimension of its magnitude acquires its definite figure, nothing would remain but the matter. Consequently the dimensions themselves, which are not determined by themselves but by something else, are matter. This followed mainly from the underlying principles of Plato, who posited numbers and quantities as the substance of things.
lib. 4 l. 3 n. 6 Quia igitur locus est dimensiones, et dimensiones sunt materia, dicebat Plato in Timaeo, quod idem est locus et materia. Omne enim receptivum alicuius dicebat esse locum, non distinguens inter receptibilitatem loci et materiae: unde cum materia sit receptivum formarum, sequitur quod materia sit locus. Tamen sciendum est quod de receptivo diversimode Plato loquebatur: quia in Timaeo dixit receptivum esse materiam; in dogmatibus autem dictis et non scriptis, idest cum verbotenus docebat in scholis, dicebat receptivum esse magnum et parvum, quae etiam ex parte materiae ponebat, ut supra dictum est. Tamen, cuicumque attribueret esse receptivum, semper dicebat quod receptivum et locus sint idem. Sic igitur, cum multi dicerent locum esse aliquid, solus Plato conatus est assignare quid sit locus.	427. Therefore, because place is dimensions and dimensions are matter, Plato said in the Timaeus that place and matter are the same. For he said that whatever is a receptacle of anything is a place (failing to distinguish between the receptiveness of place and of matter). Hence, since matter receives form, it follows that matter is place. Yet it should be noted that Plato spoke in various ways about receptacles: for in the Timaeus he said that the receptacle is matter but in his “unwritten teaching,” i.e., his oral teaching in the schools, he said that the receptacle was “the large and the small,” which however he allied with matter, as we have said above. Yet no matter to what he attributed receptivity, he always said that the receptacle and place are the same. Therefore, while many did say that place is something, Plato alone endeavored to say what place is.
lib. 4 l. 3 n. 7 Deinde cum dicit: merito autem ex his intendentibus etc., concludit ex praedictis, quod si locus est vel materia vel forma, rationabile videtur quod difficile sit cognoscere quid sit locus: quia tam materia quam forma habent altissimam speculationem et difficilem; et non est facile etiam cognoscere unum eorum sine altero.	428. Then [293 209 b17] he concludes from the foregoing that if place is either matter or form, it seems reasonable to say that it is difficult to know what place is: because both matter and form involve very lofty and difficult speculation; moreover, it is not easy to know either of them without the other.
lib. 4 l. 3 n. 8 Deinde cum dicit: at vero quod impossibile sit etc., ponit quinque rationes in contrarium. Circa quarum primam dicit, quod non est difficile videre locum non esse materiam vel formam: quia forma et materia non separantur a re cuius sunt; sed locum contingit separari, quia in loco in quo erat aer, postea est aqua; et etiam alia corpora ad invicem transmutant locum. Unde manifestum est quod locus non est pars rei ut materia vel forma. Neque est etiam habitus, seu quodcumque accidens: quia partes et accidentia non sunt separabilia a re; sed locus est separabilis. Et hoc manifestat per exemplum: quia locus videtur comparari ad locatum sicut quoddam vas; sed in hoc tantum differt, quod locus est immobilis, vas autem mobile, ut infra exponetur. Sic igitur per hoc quod locus est separabilis, ostenditur quod locus non sit forma. Sed quod locus non sit materia, ostenditur non solum per hoc quod est separabilis, sed etiam per hoc quod continet: materia autem non continet, sed continetur.	429. Then [294 209 b21] he gives five reasons to the contrary. In the first of these he says that it is not difficult to see that place is neither matter nor form. For form and matter are not separate from the thing of which they are components, whereas place can be separated—in the place where air was, water now is. In like manner, other bodies also mutually change place. Hence it is clear that place is not part of a thing, as matter or form. Nor is place an accident of a thing, because parts and accidents are nor separable from a thing, whereas place is separable. He shows this by an example: place seems to be related to the thing in place as a vessel, the only difference being that place is immobile and the vessel mobile, as will be explained below (L.6). Consequently, since place is separable, it is not form. But that place is not matter is shown not only by the fact that it is separable, but also by the fact that it contains, whereas matter does not contain but is contained.
lib. 4 l. 3 n. 9 Secundam rationem ponit ibi: videtur autem semper et cetera. Quia enim ostenderat quod locus non est materia nec forma, per hoc quod locus separatur a locato, vult ostendere quod etiam si locus nunquam separaretur a locato, ex hoc ipso quod dicimus aliquid esse in loco, apparet quod locus non est forma neque materia: quia omne quod dicitur esse alicubi, videtur et ipsum esse aliquid, et alterum aliquid esse ab eo in quo est. Unde cum aliquid dicitur esse in loco, sequitur quod locus sit extra locatum. Materia autem et forma non sunt extra rem: ergo neque materia neque forma est locus.	430. He now gives a second reason [295 209 b32]. Since he had shown that place is neither matter nor form on the ground that place is separated from the thing in place, he now wishes to show that even if place were never separated from the thing in place, yet the very fact that we say something is in place shows that place is neither form nor matter. For whatever is said to be anywhere seems both to be something and to be distinct from that in which it is. Hence, when something is said to be in place, it follows that place is outside the thing, whereas matter and form are not outside the thing. Therefore, neither matter nor form is place.
lib. 4 l. 3 n. 10 Tertiam rationem ponit ibi: Platoni igitur dicendum est et cetera. Hic arguit specialiter contra positionem Platonis digrediendo. Dictum est enim supra in tertio, quod Plato posuit ideas et numeros non esse in loco. Sequebatur autem, secundum eius sententiam de loco, quod essent in loco: quia omne participatum est in participante; species autem et numeros ponebat participari, sive a materia, sive a magno et parvo. Sequitur ergo quod species et numeri sint in materia, sive in magno et parvo. Si igitur materia, vel magnum et parvum est locus, sequitur quod numeri et species sint in loco.	431. In the third reason [296 209 b34] he makes a digression to argue specifically against the position of Plato. For it was said in Book III that Plato posited ideas and numbers as not in place. But logically, according to his opinion about place, they should be in place, because whatever is participated is in the participant—and he said that species and numbers are participated either by matter or by “the large and the small.” Accordingly, species and number exist in matter or in “the large and small,” Therefore, if matter or “the large and the small” are place, it follows that numbers and species are in place.
lib. 4 l. 3 n. 11 Quartam rationem ponit ibi: amplius quomodo ferretur et cetera. Circa quam dicit quod non poterit convenienter assignari quomodo aliquid moveatur secundum locum, si materia et forma sint locus. Impossibile est enim assignare locum in iis quae non moventur sursum vel deorsum, vel quomodocumque aliter secundum locum; unde in illis quaerendus est locus, quae secundum locum moventur. Sed si in ipso quod movetur est locus quasi aliquid ei intrinsecum (quod oportet dicere si materia vel forma sit locus), sequitur quod locus erit in loco: quia omne quod transmutatur secundum locum, est in loco; sed ea quae sunt in re ut species et infinitum, idest materia, moventur simul cum re, quia non semper sunt in eodem loco, sed sunt ubi est res. Ergo oportet quod materia et forma sint in loco. Si igitur alterum eorum sit locus, sequitur quod locus sit in loco, quod est inconveniens.	432. He gives the fourth reason [297 210 a2]. In this regard he says that no good explanation could be given of how something could be moved according to place, if matter and form are place. For it is impossible to assign a place in things that are not moved up or down or in any direction of place; hence place must be sought in things that are moved according to place. But if place is something intrinsic to what is moved (which would be the case if matter or form were place), it follows that place will be in a place, for whatever is changed in respect to place is itself in place. Now whatever is in a thing, such as its species and the infinite, i.e., its matter, is moved with the thing, since they are not always in the same place, but are wherever the thing is. Therefore, matter and form must be in a place. Therefore, if either of them is place, it follows that place is in a place, which is unacceptable.
lib. 4 l. 3 n. 12 Quintam rationem ponit ibi: amplius cum ex aere fit aqua etc.: quae talis est. Quandocumque aliquid corrumpitur, corrumpuntur aliquo modo partes speciei ipsius; materia autem et forma sunt partes speciei; ergo corrupta re, ad minus per accidens forma et materia corrumpuntur. Si igitur materia et forma sit locus, sequitur quod locus corrumpatur, si locus pertinet ad speciem: quia corpus quod generatur non esset in eodem loco, si locus aeris pertineret ad speciem eius, sicut cum aqua generatur ex aere. Sed non est assignare qualiter locus corrumpatur: ergo non potest dici quod materia vel forma sit locus. Ultimo autem epilogat, quod dictum est per quae videtur necessarium esse quod sit locus, et per quae aliquis potest dubitare de substantia eius.	433. The fifth reason is then given [298 210 a9]. Whenever anything is corrupted, the parts of its species are somehow corrupted. Now matter and form are the parts of the species. Therefore, when the thing corrupts, then, at least per accidens, the matter and form are corrupted. Consequently, if matter and form are place, it follows that place is corrupted, if place pertains to the species. Now the body which is generated would not be in the same place, if the place of air pertained to the species of the air, as when water is generated from air. But no explanation can be given of how place is corrupted; hence it cannot be said that matter or form are place. Finally, he summarizes by asserting that we have stated why it seems place must exist and what causes doubt about its existence.